Transcript: Estonia’s Minister of Foreign Affairs Margus Tsahkna in Dialogue with Henry Huiyao Wang

War in Ukraine, energy security, and UN institutions—keynote and Q&A in Beijing, November 4, 2025

On November 4, 2025, the Center for China and Globalization (CCG) was pleased to host a keynote and dialogue with Estonia’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, Margus Tsahkna, followed by a live Q&A. A number of foreign ambassadors and deputy chiefs of missions also attended the event.

A number of foreign ambassadors and deputy chiefs of missions also attended the event.

The visit was the first event of Tsahkna’s official trip to China—Estonia’s first foreign ministerial visit to Beijing in a decade, which included talks with Member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) and Foreign Minister Wang Yi.

This event continues CCG’s ministerial dialogues. In April 2024, Slovenian Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Tanja Fajon joined a CCG–Bled Strategic Forum roundtable with China’s Climate Special Envoy Liu Zhenmin; in June 2024, Türkiye’s foreign minister Hakan Fidan delivered remarks at CCG; in March 2025, Portugal’s foreign minister Paulo Rangel visited CCG on the first day of his China visit; and in July 2025, Croatia’s foreign minister Gordan Grlić Radman spoke at CCG during his China visit.

The event was broadcast on Chinese social media channels and remains available on CCG’s official WeChat blog.

CCG will later upload the video recording to its official YouTube channel. The following transcript is based on the video and has not been reviewed by any of the speakers.

Henry Huiyao Wang, Founder & President, CCG

Good morning, Your Excellency, Foreign Minister Margus Tsahkna, Foreign Minister of Estonia. We also have many ambassadors here today. We have the ambassador from Estonia, and ambassadors from Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Latvia, Greece, Mexico, and North Macedonia. We have so many great friends here. Beyond that, we also have diplomatic representatives from Cambodia, the Czech Republic, the EU Delegation, Hungary, Indonesia, Malta, Morocco, the Netherlands, Pakistan, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, and Ukraine. It’s really impressive that we have such a high-powered audience here.

Excellencies, colleagues, and friends, good morning and welcome to the Center for China and Globalization. Today, we also have representatives from business, think tanks, and the media. This is a great gathering. We are very much honoured to host today’s keynote and dialogue with Minister Margus Tsahkna.

In the past year or two, CCG has had the privilege of hosting visiting European leaders right here at the Center for China and Globalization. We have actually become a welcoming point—a think tank in China hosting the foreign ministers of Croatia, Portugal, Slovenia, and Turkey, just to name a few, all within the past year.

Your visit today, Minister Tsahkna, continues that tradition, and we’re very grateful for your time. You just arrived in Beijing today and still chose to spend your precious time with us and our distinguished audience gathered here this morning.

Since the founding of the Center for China and Globalization in 2008, CCG has been committed to building an open and professional platform for dialogue among policymakers, scholars, business leaders, and young people. We are among China’s most active non-governmental platforms for international exchange, with many friends in Europe and, of course, in many other countries as well.

Each year, we host a side event at the Munich Security Conference, and we also collaborate closely with the Paris Peace Forum. I actually just got back from the Paris Peace Forum and the TRT Forum in Istanbul. I understand the Minister was also recently in Turkey. These are very good conferences that many of us have attended. I also remember attending a conference in Estonia two years ago. We are the only Chinese think tank that has been invited to the Bled Strategic Forum for three consecutive years, which is a well-known forum in Europe.

CCG is a leading Chinese working think tank with the European Policy Centre (EPC) based in Brussels. Together, we have conducted a five-year EU–China think tank exchange program, a European Union project jointly funded by the EU and China. Think tank exchanges have been one of our key areas over the last five years.

CCG also runs a regular program of visits across Europe every year. So, welcome to all our representatives from different sectors, embassies, the diplomatic corps, and of course, the think tank community. Within our broader European engagement, Estonia holds a special place for us. I particularly remember that in May 2023, I attended the Lennart Meri Conference in Tallinn. We were the only Chinese think tank represented at this meeting. During the visit, I had the pleasure of meeting various government agencies in Estonia, including the President of the Parliament and other leaders—a great exchange.

In June this year, we were pleased to welcome Ms Kristi Karelsohn from the Estonian Ministry of Foreign Affairs here at CCG. We also appreciate Ambassador Hanso and his team, who frequently join our dialogues in Beijing. Recently, we also hosted the Croatian Ambassador here, and we welcomed the Croatian Foreign Minister right in this very venue.

During our visit to Estonia, we were not only impressed by the grand sights—a very beautiful country—but also by how smoothly everyday life works, particularly your digital services, e-Residency, and the fast-developing digital mechanisms closely linked with your country’s development. Through these exchanges, we felt even closer to a country of creativity, resilience, and practical innovation.

With this first-hand understanding, let me say a word about the broader China–Estonia relationship. Our ties are tangible and still very strong. Estonian food and agricultural products, including beer and dairy, are becoming more and more popular in the Chinese market. Chinese electric vehicles in the Estonian market are also providing consumers with new choices to help fight climate change.

I believe there is great potential for the development of China–Estonia economic and trade cooperation. This is truly one of the key areas where we see a lot of growth. Connectivity between our peoples is also improving. Estonia was among the early EU member states to be included in China’s visa-free entry program, which has made exchanges easier and more frequent. And just yesterday, China announced the addition of Sweden to the e-visa program and opened group tours to Canada—two pieces of good news.

Of course, while differences in perception may remain for some time, we believe that direct contact, fact-based dialogue, and concrete cooperation are the best ways to enhance understanding between our two countries, as well as between China and the EU. As more Estonian friends and other Europeans visit China under the new policy, our mutual trust and friendship will continue to grow. That is our belief.

Looking ahead, there is great potential for cooperation in people-centred areas such as education, innovation, digital governance, e-visas, e-residency, visa-free travel to China, and cultural exchanges. Estonia enjoys a favourable geographic location, is known for its ecology, green agriculture, and digital economy, and is an active participant in international affairs. So there is enormous room for collaboration.

It goes without saying that China and Estonia have different histories and cultures, operate in different environments, and face different challenges. Yet none of this prevents the two countries from strengthening mutually beneficial cooperation to better serve the well-being of our two peoples.

So, Minister Tsahkna, thank you again for joining us. We look forward to hearing your insights on the opportunities ahead, as well as the challenges and potential solutions. In any case, I believe in the value of constructive dialogue that promotes peace, stability, and mutual understanding between China and Estonia. I also wish you a pleasant stay in Beijing and productive meetings with senior Chinese officials. I’m pleased to note that officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are accompanying you this morning on your visit. We’ve just begun, and since this is your first stop, I’m sure it will be a very good start.

We warmly welcome more friends from Estonia to visit China and to experience the achievements of reform and opening-up. I’m confident that China’s 15th Five-Year Plan over the next five years will create even more opportunities and demonstrate how Chinese modernisation is transforming the ancient civilisation.

Now, before inviting the Minister to deliver his much-anticipated keynote speech, I would like to ask a great friend of CCG, Ambassador Hannes Hanso, to introduce Foreign Minister Margus Tsahkna. Please, Ambassador. He is very experienced in China, studied here, and knows the country very well. Ambassador—please, welcome.

Hannes Hanso, Ambassador of Estonia to China

Dear Henry and the CCG team, thank you very much for offering us this wonderful platform for this public engagement, which kicks off the Minister’s two-day, very packed programme visit to Beijing. I really commend the CCG team for the work they are doing in engaging the international community here, including all the embassies and ambassadors.

As the Ambassador of Estonia, I am very happy that since I arrived here in 2022, we have managed to upgrade the level of visits to Beijing every year. In 2023, we had our Deputy State Secretary visiting and had all the relevant contacts, meetings, and interactions here. Last year, we had our Secretary of State visiting; he is the number two in our foreign policy system, as the head of the institution of the Foreign Ministry.

And now, I am super pleased that I can call an old friend and colleague of mine, Minister Tsahkna, who has found time in his very busy international schedule to visit China. So, who knows what comes next year! We can talk about this later.

China is an incredibly relevant country in international relations. One cannot underestimate it in any area, be it the political beat, the security beat, or the economic beat.

So, we have a lot of challenges together, as we all know. And Estonians are very Nordic people, so please don’t be surprised if you hear some very strong, straightforward opinions and statements. But this is what we have to do, we need to explain our side of the story and try to form common ground based on what we all believe in and what we find important in this world.

Of course, we all know the elephant in the room in Europe: that’s Russia’s war of aggression in Ukraine and our support for that country. This is a very important topic, but there are also many other important topics. As Estonia is part of NATO and part of the European Union, we of course work very actively within all these organisations to create peace, stability, and wealth in our neighbourhood and globally.

I don’t want to take any more of your time. We have a Minister here; he’s prepared his notes. So, thank you very much for coming, and I do hope you find this presentation and this meeting worth your while. Some of you we will see also later during different engagements and during the visit. Thank you very much for coming, and thank you again, CCG.

Margus Tsahkna, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Estonia

Thank you, President Dr Wang. Thank you, Hannes, Ambassador of Estonia. You know, we always send the best people to our friendly countries—and the best friends. Ambassador Hanso knows personally China very well, because I think he’s the only person in this room, at least, who has been bicycling across China twice and also studied here. So, I can assure you that we are very happy about your presence here.

I’m really happy about this honour and also this welcoming speech, Dr Wang, what you said about Estonia and our relations. The truth is that the last foreign minister’s visit happened to be in Beijing 10 years ago, when we opened our embassy building here. And now I’m here, and I’m really happy to have arrived today in the morning. And this visit will be very packed, really. But the program is really high-level. And this is my first meeting, and I use this opportunity to share with you the perspectives from the Estonian point of view, because, amongst good partners, we must be honest. And for us, and for Europe as well, China is a strategic partner. And for that, we need to talk about things as they are.

About Estonia, as you know, we are a big country. We have 1.3 million people living there. But Estonians speak the Estonian language. Most of the world does not know about it. But the language, for me and more broadly, is not actually a communication tool. It’s a logical system. So we have been living there in a very difficult geographical location for close to 10,000 years, and we have plans to continue like this for another 10,000 years. And the reason is that somehow we are surviving. There is no scientific reason for that because we have been through history under different conquests and regimes. Now we are enjoying independence, but it has not been very easy for us during the last hundred years.

We gained our independence for the first time in 1918 when we went into the Independence War, and actually, we were victorious against Soviet Russia. Small nation. Can you imagine? But we did it. And we lost our independence in 1940 to Soviet Russia again. But the good thing, and all Estonians are very grateful to China, is that China was one of the countries that didn’t recognise the occupation of Estonia by the Soviet Union. And it meant us a lot because during this occupation, we actually lost every fifth Estonian by killings, deportations, rapes, refugees, and so on.

And why am I telling you that? It’s not a history speech here, but it is defining a lot of how we see the world, and it is the cornerstone of our foreign policy as well.

For now, all political parties in Estonia agreed in 1991, when we regained our independence, on two principles. The first is that this time, if the aggressor or aggression is coming, we fight back. We didn’t do it in 1939–1940, but this time we will do it, whatever it costs. And this defines our defence policy and foreign policy. The second principle is that we will never be alone again. We were alone in 1940, and we wanted to have good relations with Moscow, Berlin, London, Paris, Washington—everybody. But finally, if two evils made a deal about Europe, then we were alone, even if we declared that we were a neutral country. Neutrality at that time was just a green light for aggression, not only for Estonia but also for the Baltic states, Poland, and many other countries.

And of course, as a consequence of the Second World War final, we saw what happened: millions of people dead. But in Yalta in 1945, there was a deal. We were out of this deal. We were happy about the deal, but not as a nation, because we were still occupied for another 50 years. Why am I talking about this? The reason is that the United Nations Charter was agreed as well in 1945, and China is playing a great role in guaranteeing the United Nations Charter.

The first president of Estonia after regaining independence, Lennart Meri, had said—this is some kind of sentence of the idea—that for small nations, international law is the nuclear weapon. And that’s why Estonia is very following carefully international law, the United Nations Charter, and the principles of territorial integrity, sovereignty, and freedom. So this is the main core of our foreign and security policy.

And of course, trade is important. But as I mentioned before, we took the way that we will not be any more neutral country in the meaning of declaring that we are a grey zone in the neighbouring of Russia. Because Russia, unfortunately, we can say, based on our own history, has always been aggressive toward our region. We are now more than 20 years full members of NATO and the European Union. We are very active in the United Nations and many other international organisations to facilitate these kinds of natural relations to the international community, which are sharing the same values, which are actually respecting the United Nations Charter. And this is the cornerstone of our trade policies as well.

Dr Wang mentioned that the European Union, and Estonians as well, are very important partners. And we are. We are actually playing a great role in the European Union because the European Union, amongst its 27 countries, is based on equality, the meaning of rights of votes, and other principles.

Estonia is now one of the most digitalised countries in the world. I can say that. We have per capita the most unicorns, the companies which are really changing the world because of the size of the revenues. Estonia is the best environment for the startup companies. We have 12 unicorns from Estonia. It’s a lot.

Also, Dr Wang mentioned the e-Residency programme. I am just welcoming all Chinese people as well to look into that because to be part of the best environment of new businesses, you don’t need to become actually physically in residence of Estonia, but you can become an e-Resident of Estonia and all the services and all the environment will be open for you. And this is a way our small nation is making itself larger and bigger.

Also, 100% of public services are online. I think we are the only country in the world. We have done all these developments together with private sector companies. And these companies, together with us, are always globally ready to do business and cooperate with our government, which is supporting them.

But what is the elephant in the room? Because, of course, the European Union and China are constantly negotiating on better free trade conditions. I think the European Union is one of the most important trade partners for China, as well as the other way around.

But what is the weakness of the European Union sometimes? Sometimes the European Union is divided amongst not only 27 countries, but there are different countries who have different views and also interests. But the European Union mainly is an economic union, which guaranteed there has not been war in Europe after the Second World War. It was the main reason to put these countries together.

But the enlargement process is a normal part of the European Union as well. We were very happy 21 years ago to become part of this union. But the enlargement process is ongoing, and now we are negotiating the process for the Baltic nations, but also for Ukraine and Moldova, which is very important.

But the elephant in the room for Europe is Russia. It has been like this, but now it’s even more actively in the room because Russia is waging a war in the middle of Europe, when we were thinking that the war is not possible anymore. And with all these atrocities, what we saw during the 50 years of occupation, when we lost every fifth of Estonia, exactly the same things that are now happening in Ukraine.

I just come back from Ukraine last week. I was there and we are very often there because we are witnessing what is happening. But also we are supporting Ukraine, whatever it costs, because we can honestly say that Ukraine is not only fighting for themselves and for their own freedom. Ukraine is standing for the United Nations Charter principles about territorial integrity, standing against aggression. And also, we can say that Ukraine is fighting instead of us.

I can just put the figures on the table. I was Defence Minister in 2016–2017. I saw the other side of our borders: 120,000 troops ready to go within 48 hours. And these troops were meant for us. Those troops are now gone—they were sent to Ukraine, and they are literally dead. That’s why we are saying as well that Ukraine is not only fighting for our freedom and principles, but also instead of us.

Unfortunately, the war is ongoing. What is common for us all in China, in Europe, we all want to have peace. I just came back from Ukraine, and I met President Zelensky. And they also want peace—but a just and long-lasting peace.

The problem is that Putin has been stealing the meaning of the word “peace.” If we are talking about peace, we mean that the peace is just, the peace is long-lasting, the peace is understanding the principles of territorial integrity and sovereignty. But Putin is using the word “peace” and gaining more war.

And President Trump, I think, gave Putin as well the opportunity to start at least a ceasefire and peace negotiations. But what we have seen recently during the last couple of months is war and terror against civilians. Why is it like this? Because Russia is a rich country with well-educated people and all the resources. I think the plan is public already since 2007, when President Putin published it at the Munich Security Conference. He kept mentioning “elimination of the root causes,” and the root cause for him is the collapse of the Soviet Union.

That is the reason why, in Europe, we see now more and more—not only in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland, the neighbouring countries, but also in the European Union—that Russia unfortunately continues the aggression in Europe. And every step we do about the economy, about international relations, about the cooperation with other countries, it is the core problem in front of us. I can say as well that maybe old parts of Europe have been too lazy about investing in defence and security policies after the Second World War. But now everybody, even the southern part of Europe, they understand that we must stop the aggression.

Now, the elephant in the room between the relations of Europe and China is actually Russia again. And I can say very clearly that China is a decisive enabler for Russia for this aggression economically, but also on the military level, allowing it to get dual-use military equipment, and also supporting Russia economically because the Russian economy is weak and weaker and weaker. That’s why one of my points and my reason here for this visit is to talk and to explain as well our positions that China is one of the strongest countries in the world, and also has more and more leverage over Russia to stop the war.

What we do in Europe is as much as we can. One is, of course, we are defending ourselves more and more. Estonia is going to invest next year 5.3% of GDP in defence. It is taking money away from our economy. It is taking money away from our people, from our education. And all European countries are investing more heavily in defence, as we agreed in the NATO summit this summer, 5% in the future.

But also, it’s not about the war of aggression against Ukraine. We are under constant hybrid attacks during the last three and a half years in Europe. And also, not only hybrid—any kind of attacks which are not reaching the Article 5 level of NATO is already normality in Europe.

Just recently, in September, just before the United Nations High-Level Week, Estonia had a brutal violation of the airspace by three Russian fighter jets for 12 minutes. Can you imagine that? Estonia is not a very big country, and 12 minutes is a lot of time. And this is not something that just happened, because they were fighters and they saw the reaction as well, as NATO planes went up. It was not a direct threat. It was not an attack against our sovereignty, but it was a brutal violation of our airspace.

Just days before, the drones attacked Poland, and some of them were shot down. And unfortunately, as a proof as well, these drones were partly made in China, at least Chinese components. So if you’re asking us whether we would like to have better relations with China, of course, we all would like to have. But these kinds of facts are just shadowing these relations because this is an existential question for us. It is an essential question for Europe and for Estonia, as I’m representing here as the Foreign Minister of Estonia. So we need to talk about these things very straightforward.

What Estonia did, we called Article 4 consultations among NATO members. And I think one plan for Putin with this violation of the airspace was as well to test if NATO is working. NATO is working well, really. And the second is to divide Europe and the U.S., but it actually happened the other way around. NATO was more united than ever before I saw, because it was the first time this kind of brutal violation of the airspace for NATO as well in our region. And also, we called a United Nations Security Council meeting. It just happened when all the world leaders gathered in New York. And the support I saw as a foreign minister behind me—it was something that all Estonians felt: that first, we are ready to fight back if the aggressor is coming. But the second is that we are never alone again.

And my message to China is, as well, as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, you have responsibilities to guarantee peace in the world. And also the responsibility is not to allow anyone to change borders using military force; to guarantee the principles of territorial integrity; to guarantee the principles of sovereignty, as China, about Estonia, has been doing all these years, even when we were occupied.

And this message is very clear from the small nations as well, because these are the responsibilities that the big and very powerful countries have, mainly if they are the full members and permanent members of the United Nations Security Council.

So, as a conclusion, even though we are a small nation, we’re sharing a lot of the same principles, as I mentioned several times. And I remember—I’m not a very old man—but in Estonia and in Europe years ago, people didn’t take very seriously these principles. And if somebody said the United Nations Charter and these principles, they were something theoretical, because people were really believing in the end-of-history principles about the year of 2000 or something. But unfortunately, it was not the end of history. All the nations didn’t start to live together a prosperous life and a bright future. We’re living in a very difficult world. We have more military conflicts in the world than ever after the Second World War. We’re talking about more than 50 different conflicts, maybe more than 60 today. And these principles are more practical than ever before.

If you’re talking about the trade relations or the economic cooperation, of course, everybody would like to live a better life in China, in Europe, everywhere. But these principles are violated, and this violation of principles in Europe by Russia is something which is shadowing our relations as well, unfortunately.

I’m not just a messenger. I’m living—we are living—in Europe, and we feel it every day. And we are working hard. We put more sanctions on Russia. We are dealing with accountability questions about the special tribunal. We are supporting Ukrainians—but not only Ukrainians, but these principles, as I mentioned before. And it takes the attention from us and my colleagues that let’s do it together; let’s stop the war; we know how to do it. And also let’s rely on the United Nations Charter principles, and then we can move forward with our bilateral relations as Estonia and the European Union. So thank you very much for this opportunity.

Dialogue

Henry Huiyao Wang

Okay, great. Thank you very much. And so glad to see you, Margus. You just made a very comprehensive speech. So, I’d like to start with some questions regarding people-to-people exchanges and youth connectivity.

As you know, CCG also runs a Global Young Leaders Dialogue. And as you know, China’s new visa entry policy now covers many EU member states, with the recent announcement of its extension just yesterday. So, how can we turn that policy convenience into more meaningful two-way exchanges?

You mentioned digital initiatives such as e-Residency and e-visas. Could we also consider other initiatives for young people, such as joint youth innovation camps, startup incubation exchanges, or joint youth internship programs?

I think Estonia and China probably both have many complementary roles to play in this regard. So, what kind of small but beautiful cooperation do you think could bring the most tangible cooperation between our two countries?

Margus Tsahkna

Thank you. Not “small and beautiful,” but today we say “big and beautiful,” because some world leaders are using these words a lot—big and beautiful.

Yes, but this exchange of person-to-person relations is very important. And I’m just opening from an Estonian perspective, because everybody knows about China in Estonia—of course, it’s impossible not to know—and lots of Estonians are coming here as well. But what we are meaning now is actually the youth exchange, and also the young people to come to Estonia and the other way around.

And the keyword is education. And one thing I can say is that this is a proof as well: in all different indexes in the world, Estonia’s educational level is topping the world, and also our universities and technical universities. But also I think there are many things to learn from China, because, mainly about technical education, we need to collaborate much more. And I cannot see any kind of barriers here which can stop it.

Of course, the visa liberalisation is something which is very supportive, but also Estonia is very much open about digital solutions. I mentioned this e-Residency program, but this is a real thing. Please go and check it at e-resident.ee—go and check it there. The conditions are very easy to follow to become an e-Resident of Estonia. And it brings you as well closer to the Estonian environment, because it’s really easy to start businesses in Estonia. It’s really easy to run businesses in this environment. And, you know, you don’t need to come physically to Estonia to establish that. And mainly, the startups are connected to young people, to be honest.

One problem we have in Estonia is not the lack of ideas. We have lots of great ideas—and as in China, of course. But we have a lack of capabilities to scale up our businesses and ideas. And this cooperation is, definitely, the opportunity of two nations to collaborate; then our duty as governments is to put the conditions on the table so that our people can be more connected and also these ideas can be more scaled up.

Henry Huiyao Wang

That’s a great description of what has been envisioned. You just mentioned that in Estonia, the number of unicorns per capita is the highest in the world, right? That’s very impressive.

So I’m thinking about what kind of digital governance and practical cooperation we can really envision between Estonia and China. Because Estonia is also recognised as one of the leading countries in e-government and digital identity.

Do you also see some opportunities for China and Estonia to carry out small-scale, low-sensitivity pilot cooperation projects, for example, in business facilitation, to share best practices and build concrete models of collaboration?

I know there are many businesspeople from all over the world who have gone to Estonia, but China is also a big market and highly advanced in the digital field. So maybe there’s something we can think about and collaborate on, particularly in terms of how governance is doing, how e-governance can connect our two systems.

Margus Tsahkna

Yeah, of course, China is a huge market if you compare. And also, our companies are mainly in European markets. But as a foreign service, I can assure you as well that we are working heavily to support our companies in regions where we are not maybe normally participating. And, of course, China is a huge market, but also a very regulated market, to be honest. And this is something that the China part can do more on—to open the market. We are part of the European Union as well. Trade mainly is covered by the European Commission. So any kind of these agreements—what the European Union and China can do and negotiate about free trade, about the subsidies, and so on—would open the market for our companies as well.

And the other way around, if we are talking about the technological field and investments to the European Union, I think that Estonia is one of the best environments for doing that. And I think that Chinese businesses can find easily the great ideas to scale up and also to bring the investments.

But then, as well, we come back to this elephant in the room and also the negotiations between the European Union and China. There’s one huge perspective in Estonia—actually, Estonia is one of the countries in Europe which has the resources of rare earth metals in the future. So we have long-term plans for this as well, as well as the energy transition. One thing which is joining us or uniting our goals is actually climate change. We are working—China, the European Union, as well as Estonia. Estonia is in the middle of the transfer of the energy sector. And this is the area I can see as well for collaboration.

Henry Huiyao Wang

Great. Talking about energy, you know, I’ve been to Estonia, and it’s very green and well developed. China has also achieved remarkable progress. You can see how beautiful Beijing has become now, if you haven’t been here for ten years: we’ve got blue, clear skies today.

So, how do you think the EU, including Estonia, as strong defenders in the fight against climate change, can further contribute? I just got back from Paris, where they celebrated the 10th anniversary of the Paris Climate Agreement.

In this regard, I think there’s a real sense of green development and a green consensus. Some countries may say this is “fake news,” but we in China, and of course, Estonia and the EU, truly believe this is something we all need to work on together.

So, how do you think Estonia and China can further cooperate on green transition and green development? And of course, China has now become a leading country in green industries and products, so there could be potential cooperation in that area as well.

And maybe you can also share your thoughts on how, in the multilateral context, we can continue to uphold sustainable development as a key shared value between China, the EU, and Estonia.

Margus Tsahkna

Yes. Estonia has very precise goals about the climate. And also, we have a goal for 100% renewable energy by 2030. We discuss now in government whether we are able to actually catch this goal or not, but we’ll definitely do it.

I think that maybe 80% or so of the technology for green energy is coming actually from China. So China is actually having close to a monopoly across the European Union, in different countries and the energy sector. And this is a question as well about security now we were talking about.

But yes, I think that, you know, we are in Estonia putting together this cocktail, our mix of different energy opportunities, starting from solar and wind, but also we are reaching out for nuclear. This is something our government is working on for the next decades. But also, we are part of the European Union market and also the negotiations of the so-called green turn; we must be competitive as well in the global market.

And this is something you mentioned as well—that it’s not so easy. But if you’re talking about the environment, please come to Estonia. You can really enjoy that. You can drink water from the spring. Today is very beautiful weather, I heard. It’s my first time in Beijing, but you never have this kind of bad air in Estonia; you can breathe in clean air, you can swim, you can do whatever. You can go to the forest—we have lots of forests. So maybe this is, as well, not only between governments, but also to remind people that it is possible to have a green environment around you. And in the name of that, we are working hard.

Henry Huiyao Wang

Absolutely, we need to strengthen the people-to-people exchange and experience both the clean air and space that China is gradually providing. And also, of course, Estonia has that. We can always work on that.

Now, talking about China, Estonia, and China-EU relations, we know that just last week, China and the U.S. had a summit, and they basically agreed on a ceasefire regarding the trade escalation. I think President Trump said that on a scale from 1 to 10, this is 12 points. He said we should get out of this vicious cycle of retaliating against each other.

So what do you think about China and the EU, given that the EU and China are both among each other’s largest trading partners? And we talk about Iceland—they also have an FTA with China, which is great. And also Switzerland. I was having dinner with the Swiss Assistant Secretary of State just about a week ago. Again, Switzerland has an FTA.

Do you think that maybe in the future—I know that also Japan and South Korea are starting to talk about an FTA with China—for that part, how can the EU and China stabilise trade relations and also welcome more investment?

We know that China has been investing in the EU, in many countries now: Hungary, Serbia, Spain. We have a good political relationship. The former Prime Minister of Spain visited China twice in two years. And next, the King of Spain is coming. We’re going to see more Chinese investment going to Spain.

So let’s have a good relationship between the EU and China, and then we can see more investment and business opportunities on both sides. So what do you think about this perspective, and how can we strengthen the cooperation?

Margus Tsahkna

Yes, indeed. I think from China’s perspective—especially if you mentioned as well President Trump’s administration’s trade war, or whatever we call it, about the tariffs and the conditions, and the meeting between the two presidents went well. And as well for the European Union, because of the restrictions on rare earth metals and so on, actually it was postponed. It was good news, of course. And, as I understand, Germany actually surpassed the U.S. in trade with China. So Europe is important for China as well—not only one by one—because maybe for China it’s more interesting to take the European Union countries one by one to have special relations with everybody. But also, the European Union is like an economic unity, and that’s why we need to collaborate.

But I’m coming back again that we are discussing every month in the Foreign Council as well, the EU relations with China on the political level, not only trade. And this is why the European Union is in a very careful position about China—because of Russia’s aggression again. China is a very powerful partner, mainly on technologies. I mentioned before here as well about the energy technologies, but also the trade is not balanced between the European Union and China. And that’s why a free trade agreement is good for everybody. But trade must be free, and that’s why it is harder to reach that agreement from the European Union side. Of course, free trade globally would be a great thing, but it is not free trade, unfortunately. And that’s why these negotiations are really complicated. But maybe the U.S. is pushing us to do this agreement. Let’s see.

Henry Huiyao Wang

That’s probably right. The US is pushing China, India, Canada, and many other countries. China, it is possible, I understand. Absolutely. For example, China and the U.S. have made a lot of progress in their trade talks. And so I hope that China and the EU can do the same, because, you know, I found that if any country in the EU has a good relationship with China, then there will be a lot of investment.

I was also recently in the UK, and the UK didn’t raise any tariffs on China. And so the double-decker buses in London—a lot of them are provided by Chinese BYD. And you see all the Ubers in London are also from Geely, and all those EV cars. So, I think there’s huge potential for collaboration if we have good relations.

Now, you talked about the Ukraine and Russia war. And I noticed that recently, just in the BRICS Foreign Ministers meeting, Mr Wang Yi actually said that the BRICS countries are some of the best promoters of peace and peace-making efforts. So, probably China and countries like India, Brazil, Turkey, and others could also help to make sure these peace efforts are possible.

I know that President Xi and President Trump had a discussion in Busan, South Korea, last week, and they talked quite extensively on the Ukraine issue. So I hope that China, the U.S., and the EU can also work together for the peacemaking of Europe. We probably have to find a way, maybe a UN summit or some kind of peace summit, to promote that. Estonia certainly can be part of that as well.

Margus Tsahkna

I think that, if China wants, China can stop the war very quickly—just by having a phone call to President Putin and saying that, “You need to stop right now,” because Russia is more and more depending on China every day and every week, because the Russian economy is weak and weaker every day and every week.

We don’t need to gather on different conferences, but we need to push Putin on the position that he really would like to have peace. Because he had an opportunity many times to start real peace negotiations, starting with a ceasefire. A ceasefire is easy for Putin: a phone call to, I don’t know, whoever is there on the frontline, and this ceasefire will start. And the question is that he doesn’t have this willingness. That’s the main problem. But together, as you said, we can push Putin on this position that he must start the meaningful peace process. And that’s why I really welcome your idea: let’s push Putin together. We do as much as we can from the European side.

Henry Huiyao Wang

I agree. I think that when you talk about phone calls, it’s not that simple. President Trump made many phone calls to Putin, but they didn’t really make any progress.

Margus Tsahkna

But now, to be honest, Putin is more concerned and worried, maybe even in panic, because Trump put sanctions on two very important companies, and now the special envoy of Putin was sent to D.C., and so on. So, sorry to say, but peace can come only through strength, and we can really work on that together.

Henry Huiyao Wang

I think it’s possible to have some kind of multilateral or trilateral meetings on this issue, involving BRICS countries, China, India, Turkey, and others. As you said, having multiple players could really help in promoting peace.

But now I have a final question before we open up. You mentioned the UN and related matters. I think President Xi recently proposed the Global Governance Initiative, and he actually stressed that we need to respect UN rules, sovereignty, and, of course, all the basic fundamentals of the UN.

Having the leader of a big country like China emphasise this on a major international occasion, such as the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit, is significant. I think this shows that China sticks to the UN principles. Recently, China has fulfilled all its obligations. Of course, some had delayed payments to the UN, but now it’s very good news that China has paid up all its dues. China also recently donated 500 million to the WHO, which the U.S., under Trump, had withheld. So I think that’s great. We have to strengthen the UN, and it’s absolutely important.

I agree with you that UN principles and rules should really be upheld. So, on that part, how can we strengthen UN cooperation? This is an important issue, because we don’t want to marginalise the UN. I agree that the UN is really important.

Margus Tsahkna

Thank you for mentioning the United Nations, because there are many people in the world who say that maybe the United Nations is out of order already. And the reason is not that most of the countries or all the countries are gathered there. I think the General Assembly is working well about declarations, and you can see the map of different votings. It is very clear that most countries—a very large majority—are really sticking to the United Nations Charter and also to principles and multilateralism, and everything like this. Because if one country is able to change the borders by using force—military force—it affects others like dominoes. It’s like a domino effect.

But the main problem is the Security Council. Estonia does not belong to this Security Council. Unfortunately, we were just a non-permanent member for two years. We did what we could, but the permanent members—this is the main problem: one of the permanent members is an active aggressor. This is actually enabling the Security Council in the meaning of using the veto. So we need a reform there somehow, because it may happen—I do hope that it never happens again—what happened with the League of Nations at the end of the ’30s: that, finally, the deal, whatever we call it, what made after the First World War, was not relevant anymore for the balance in the world. And some leaders just violated it. And it was exactly like a domino effect, and the cost for everybody was really high.

This is also a responsibility as well for China, as a permanent member of the Security Council, to guarantee that these principles will last. And you can rely on Estonia, definitely.

Henry Huiyao Wang

That’s good. I mean, China is actually a strong promoter of the UN system, UN values, and UN principles. So it’s great that we have that.

Now we probably have time for one question.

Journalist, China Radio International

Hello, Minister. I’m Sabrina from China Radio International. As we all know, China is entering the 15th Five-Year Plan, and the new quality productive forces have become the key focus during these five years. So what new opportunities do you think the next Five-Year Plan can bring to our bilateral cooperation? Thank you.

Margus Tsahkna

As I understand, the question was about China’s new Five-Year Plan.

Henry Huiyao Wang

And the opportunity for cooperation between China and Estonia.

Margus Tsahkna

It depends on China, I think. Your five-year plans are, you know, large-scale plans in the meaning. And my visit here is, of course, a sign as well that we are very much interested in more cooperation between our two countries. But I am always coming back to these principles, what we disagree sometimes as well. The question for me, not even for Estonia, is: what is the five-year plan for China on the global level about security policy and international relations with the European Union and as a global player in the world? Because, let’s be frank, there is like a struggle between the U.S. and China about economic power in the world as well. And these negotiations, as you said as well, with President Trump, are about this. And Estonia is not a player there, with our 1.3 million people. But we are part of the European Union.

So what I do hope is that China and the European Union will have this strategic ownership and understanding of the principles of the United Nations Charter, respecting and understanding as well that aggression in the middle of Europe by Russia is not accepted. I do hope that for five years we will have a long-lasting and just peace in Europe by Russia, and it enables and gives opportunities for further cooperation on a new level. Thank you.